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The Difference Between Toxic Positivity and Positive Psychology with Cecilie Løvestam




Things we dive into in this episode: 

  1. The difference between toxic positivity and genuine positivity

  2. Tangible positive psychology tools for living a happier life today

  3. Processing the human experience with savoring


📘Resources


Cecilie is a positive psychology practitioner & a trauma-informed yoga & mindfulness teacher.


📌Episode Highlights


What is the difference between being genuinely optimistic, and toxically positive?

  • Positivity becomes toxic when it's false, forced, or fake. When you are bypassing the really real challenges that are just part of the human experience and forcing positivity when it's not really there.

  • Instead, it's better to validate the challenges that are just part of the human experience by being present for them.

  • We don't want to be overly consumed by the difficulties or ruminate on them. We can process them and then move through them. And then when we have processed and validated the challenges that are really real, then we can focus on how to shift our focus, notice what is working, and figure out how we can get more of what is working.

  • We have access to a genuine sense of gratitude, a genuine sense of joy, but it is grief that gives you access to genuine gratitude. It is sadness that gives you access to genuine happiness. There's just sincerely no way around that.

  • Allowing yourself to drop all the way into these harder, more challenging feelings is what's going to allow you to stay in your body long enough to experience the positive feelings. Because if we avoid the negative feelings, we're avoiding our bodies. And if we're avoiding our bodies, we're not gonna be able to feel the positive emotions either.

  • You don't get to choose between feeling the harder emotions or the positive emotions. Being realistic about that makes the positivity more geniune.


I just listened to the Mel Robbins podcast about how to be happier. And she spent so much time talking about how relationships are the number one predictor of our quality of life. I feel stuck in this area of my life. I understand that I should have more positive relationships and I really want them and I'm putting myself out there to find them. But I feel like I don't have enough high quality friends and I also don't have a partner.

  • Firstly, you are not alone! Everyone feels this way or has felt this way at some point in their lives. It is so normal.

  • Celebrate the fact that you're doing what you can to foster more meaningful connections, rather than getting stuck on it "not working." It's inevitable that you're going to find the relationships you're looking for. Let it take time.

  • Acknowledge the little moments of human connection that can happen in the mundane moments of your life. This makes you more present for potential deeper connections and gives you a sprinkle of positivity throughout your day.

    • Talk to the barista at when you pay for your coffee.

    • Thank someone for holding the door open for you.

    • Chat with your fitness instructor after class.

  • Don't underestimate the value of sending a few text messages to people you haven't spoken to in a while. It doesn't take a ton of effort and is meaningful to connect with people, even in small ways.


Tangible Tools for Tapping Into Positive Psychology:

  • Get a little bit more specific with the positive emotions you're feeling. In our culture, we're socialized into answering the question, "how are you?" with "good." But what does that really mean? Can you get a little bit more specific with how you're actually feeling?

  • Build awareness of your emotions by tracking of your own state of mind. Use your calendar or a note on your phone to put track your emotions with emojis or a few words 3-4 times a day. You'll start to see patterns, especially if you note what you were doing when you felt certain emotions.

  • Based on how you want to feel, you can be intentional about scheduling more of the activities and things that will make you feel how you want to feel.

  • Give yourself permission to take care of your wellbeing in intentional ways. It's the foundational step to really let yourself have it.

    • You can even write a letter giving yourself the permission slip you feel you need and share it with someone you trust for accountability.

  • Savoring Practice

    • Great wisdom can come from processing the failure and the challenges that are part of the human experience and deeply processing the good stuff. We're being wise about what we're holding on to. We're processing the challenges and letting them move through us, and then we're moving on and we're holding on to the good stuff and we're amplifying the good stuff.

    • Future Savoring - positive anticipation for a future experience

    • In the Moment Savoring - letting yourself have positive emotions and letting yourself feel them in the moment

    • Past Savoring - taking in and processing past experiences


Thanks for listening! 💖 Stay tuned to Caitie’s website for more episode updates and other exciting programs and resources.


Transcript


Cecilie: Great wisdom can come from processing the failure and the challenges that are part of the human experience, as we talked about, and deeply processing the good stuff. So we're being wise about what we're holding on to. The challenges, we're processing them, we're letting them move through us, and then we're moving on and we're holding on to the good stuff and we're amplifying the good stuff.


Caitie: Welcome to Whole, Full & Alive, a podcast helping you feed yourself, feel yourself and be yourself. I'm Caitie Corradino. I'm a Registered-Dietician Nutritionist, a body image coach, and the founder of Full Soul Nutrition, a method that combines nutrition counseling with a powerful toolkit of somatic healing modalities. I have guided hundreds of clients to freedom with food, their bodies, and every aspect of their lives. I've also been through this healing myself. And on this podcast, I want to help you eat with confidence, embrace your body, form aligned relationships, and create a life that you're in love with. I'll share actionable tools, no bullshit stories and interviews that will remind you why you have everything you need within you to feel whole, full and alive. Are you ready? Let's get into it.


Hey, welcome back to another episode of Whole, Full, & Alive, the podcast helping you feed yourself, feel yourself, and be yourself. Thank you so much for tuning into today's episode. I'm so grateful that you're here. I'm so grateful to welcome you back for your 50th episode, if it's your 50th episode, your first episode, if it's your first episode. I really, really, really appreciate the community that is forming around this podcast. I can't stress that enough. Thank you for your questions. Thank you for your feedback. I just, yeah, I'm giving an Oscar speech to open up this podcast, but thank you a lot for being here today. I have a very special guest on today's show and we're gonna be talking about fostering positive emotions. And that's a very fancy way of saying how to be happier, how to be happier every day of your life, tangible things that you can do to start to feel happier today. I have a positive psychology counselor on the show today and you are going to walk away from this episode feeling empowered with really practical information and practices that you can start implementing in your life today. 


But before we dive in, I want to invite you to take the deepest breath that you have taken so far today. So wherever you're tuning in from, I invite you to remember that you have a body, wiggle your toes, wiggle your fingers, drop below your head and take a nice deep inhale through your nose, feel your back expand as you fill up. And then take a really long and complete exhale out of your mouth. Keep taking those breaths as many times as you need throughout this episode and throughout the rest of your day. And one more thing before we dive in, I have some openings for one-on-one counseling in my practice right now. If you are looking to work on your relationship with food, your body image, or your sense of self-confidence, I am so excited to welcome you to work with me one-on-one. I am taking new clients starting June 1st. And every month I also offer group coaching sessions and those group sessions focus on body image, meal planning, and embodiment practices like breath work. I have three different groups every month. One body image group, one food group, one breath work group. You can head to my website, fullsoulnutrition.com to learn more about that stuff. If you're interested in hopping in, I'd love to have you. All right.


Let's get into today's episode with today's most special guest. I have to say that this is an amazing person in my professional and work life and also my personal life. Cecilie Løvestam is a positive psychology counselor and a trauma-informed yoga and mindfulness teacher. And she is just one of my most favorite human beings on this planet Earth. She is based in Oslo, Norway and manages to still be one of my absolute best friends. We've been countries apart, worlds apart for a really long time. And yet we still have such a close working and personal relationship. And I'm so grateful that you're going to get to be in her energy today and hear from her. Cecilie, welcome to Whole, Full, & Alive.


Cecilie: Thank you so much for having me, Caitie, and thank you for that introduction. It's really good to see you and great to be here.


Caitie: Just like hearing Cecilie speak is a calming experience. So I also think that even if, you know, for some reason you're not primed to absorb information today, just listen to the sound of Cecilia's voice and the energy and the resonance in her voice is just so soothing. So, so, so calming. No pressure, Cecilia, but really just the way you speak is so nurturing. And I'm so excited just to have your voice on the pod for that reason. We are going to do some listener questions to kick off, but before we do, in your own words, do you want to just introduce yourself to everyone and let us know just a little bit about how you became a positive psychology counselor, trauma-informed yoga and mindfulness teacher, whatever you feel like sharing in your own words.


Cecilie: Yeah, absolutely. So I actually really became fascinated with psychology from a really young age, I would say. As a teenager, I started being drawn towards psychology and that really happened because I had someone really close to me in my personal life having really severe mental health challenges and I wanted to understand more. So that's how I first became drawn towards psychology and in high school I started taking psychology classes and I'm like, okay, yes, this is a thing. This is what I want to pursue. I want to understand other people. I want to understand myself and I want to be able to hold spaces for healing. And so I went on to study applied psychology at NYU. That's where we met Caitie. We were in the same program, applied psychology at NYU and from there, I got really fascinated with positive psychology, which is essentially the science of well-being. So the science of well-being, it's all about how can we foster more of the good stuff, right? How can we have more positive emotions, which we'll talk about today, but also more meaning and better relationships and foster just strength and just more of what's already there. In addition to the more traditional form of psychology, which is about healing from mental health challenges and so on.


So I went on to University of Pennsylvania, got my masters in applied psychology, positive psychology at UPenn. And I also as a student got really interested in yoga and started practicing yoga, experienced amazing benefits on my own mental health and wellbeing. And went on to pursue several teacher trainings, including trauma informed yoga teacher training. So I, in my current work, I just feel like science and well-being, positive psychology and yoga and mindfulness just perfectly goes together and I apply these different practices and evidence-based practices to help my clients live better lives, reduce stress and just have more balance and inner calmness.


Caitie: Beautiful. I love the distinction between positive psychology versus regular psychology. I wanna pull over on that for a second. It's not that we replace regular psychology with positive psychology, but I think that positive psychology is sort of like this missing link. If we only think about traditional psychology, which is just about, yes, healing from mental illness and mental health challenges, then we're missing this extra layer of like, well, how do we foster more of the good stuff, more good relationships, more positive emotions, more fulfillment, more meaning in our lives. And it kind of reminds me of the way I talk about nutrition a little bit sometimes, because sometimes my clients get stuck in a place where it's like, okay, as long as I'm just like eating enough, I'm good. And it's like, well, yes. And how can we get you to have more enjoyment in your food and more variety in your food and more diverse array of vitamins and minerals? And it's like, yeah, nutrition is one of those things too, where it's like, we do have to heal from nutritional issues, nutritional challenges, and then we can add sprinkles and like more layers and like let it be so that you feel really good, not just the absence, like health is not just the absence of disease, it's the presence of joy and energy and fulfillment.


Cecilie: Exactly, exactly. Thanks for highlighting that.


Caitie: Yeah, yeah. So from the lens of positive psychology, Cecilie and I are gonna answer two listener questions to kick us off. And then Cecilie is gonna also teach us some tangible practices for fostering more positive emotions in your daily life. So the first listener question I received, and it's one that I love, is what is the difference between being genuinely optimistic, and toxic positivity. And yeah, do you wanna kick us off with that one?


Cecilie: Yeah, absolutely. That's a great question. And I think there's definitely a really clear difference between authentic positivity and the positive emotions that we want to foster and toxic positivity. So the definition of toxic positivity that I've seen a lot and that I personally believe in is that positivity becomes toxic when it's false, forced, or fake. So it's like when you are bypassing the really real challenges that are just part of the human experience and just kind of forcing positivity when it's not really there, it's not real. So some examples that I can think of are those statements like, don't worry, be happy, good vibes only. I think we've seen quite a bit of that over the last 10 years or so. And to give an example, I can actually, I can tell a story if that's helpful. So just to kind of bring this, make this more clear. So a few weeks ago, I was talking to one of my sisters and two younger sisters. And one of them, she was having some navigating some challenges at work, which is common, right? Like a lot of people have challenges at work and we were sitting down and talking about it. And if I were to kind of be toxic positivity, I would just be like, look at the bright side, just don't worry about it, forget about it. And just like trying to force positivity when it's not there. That's when positivity becomes toxic. Instead, we need to validate the challenges that are just part of the human experience. Like that's why I said it's common, right? It's like a lot of people go through this and it's normal. And can we hold that? 


And I think you, Caitie, you do such a great job of doing this in your podcast. And you're talking, always talking about leaving the positive and the negative together. And so it's like being present for the challenges that are there. But we also, it needs to be balanced, right? We don't want to get stuck there. We don't want to get stuck in the negativity and kind of becomes overly consumed by that or ruminate on that. And it's just like, we need to process it and then move through it. And then when we have processed there and validated the challenges that are really real, then it's like, okay, how can we like shift our focus? What is working? And how can we get more of that? Like how can we build on the good stuff too, if that makes sense.


Caitie: Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. I think I can personally tell you that one of my deepest fears is being perceived as someone who is in toxic positivity. It's something that I've grappled with for a really long time. I've also sincerely been afraid to be someone who is perceived as self-absorbed or someone who is self-absorbed. And the reason why I'm sharing that is because I actually just yesterday met a really cool guy. His name's Brandon Collinsworth and he was talking about self love and I was like, okay, well what's the difference between loving yourself, like self love and like being a narcissist? Because I almost feel like there's a fine line and he so beautifully held this question and was like, a narcissist doesn't actually love themselves. A narcissist is someone who wants other people to love them and wants other people to perceive that they are worthy, but they don't actually love themselves. They love this kind of narrative that they've spun to other people about themselves. And, you know, there was many other layers to his answer to my question, but that was one thing that really stuck out to me and reminded me about this difference between toxic positivity and genuinely just fostering positive emotions and being truly optimistic, it's like toxic positivity isn't real. You're not actually feeling the positivity. 


And in order to make sure you get to that place where you are actually feeling the positive emotions, you have to trudge through all the negative ones. You have to let grief pass through your body. You have to let sadness pass through your body. You have to let anger, frustration, resentment, whatever it is, just like pass through for a little bit and genuinely land in it and experience radical acceptance of those emotions because that's what actually gives you access to the other side of the coin. We are designed to feel all the feels. And I think sometimes people say, okay, well, I'm afraid I'm gonna get stuck in the negative emotions if I allow those to come through. But the truth is that the place where we usually get stuck is in the fear of feeling the feelings rather than actually feeling the feelings or in this sort of numb place rather than in this like truly feeling place. And so when I think about, you know, how do we actually step, how do we make sure we're out of toxic positivity and we're in genuine positivity? It's like, well, are we giving ourselves an opportunity to feel the negative feelings as well so that we have access to a genuine sense of gratitude, a genuine sense of joy. It is grief that gives you access to genuine gratitude. It is sadness that gives you access to genuine happiness. There's just sincerely no way around that. And I think landing in that is how I got over my fear of being toxic positive. And yeah, just yesterday I had this conversation about like, yeah, how can you love yourself without, you know, loving yourself too much? Like, is that a thing? I'm curious, like, does that bring up anything else for you?


Cecilie: Yes, yes, thank you. So yeah, that was beautifully put. And I think, yeah, that is so true. We need, we need a full spectrum. That's part of being human, right? As human, we need a full spectrum. And recently, I've actually had some thoughts about, you know, the label of negative emotions. I don't know if I like that, because yes, they're uncomfortable, maybe they're challenging, but they're also important, like you said, like, because they tell us different important information about what matters to us. And we need those, we need those. And another way we could get stuck, in addition to those you mentioned, is also when we put judgment on ourselves for having emotions, like, oh, I shouldn't feel sad, I shouldn't feel annoyed, like I should be happy, I should be happier. And we judge ourselves for having challenging or quote unquote negative emotions. That's another way we can get stuck. So that's where, because we're essentially adding more challenging emotions like guilt and shame on top of those emotions. And that is just kind of a negative spiral. So the acceptance piece, the radical acceptance piece that you mentioned, accepting our emotions and being curious about them and letting them move through us, process them is so important because then we can take the next step and re-shift our focus and take action that will be actually really supportive for our well-being.


Caitie: Yeah, yeah. And this is how it's possible for us to turn our challenging experiences into meaningful experiences, the ones that make us who we are. I think it's oversimplified, obviously, when people say everything happens for a reason. And it's way oversimplified when people say, oh, I'm really grateful that that, you know, bad thing or that hard thing happened to me, because that's not what it is, right? However, it is allowing yourself to feel all of your feelings about whatever the fuck it is that happened and feel all of your grief, all of your anger, all of your sadness about whatever it is that happened and use that and turn that into wisdom. Crystallize that into wisdom is something that I find myself saying a lot. And also understand that you allowing yourself to drop all the way into these harder, more challenging feelings is what's gonna allow you to stay in your body long enough to experience the positive feelings, right? Because if we avoid the negative feelings, we're avoiding our bodies. And if we're avoiding our bodies, we're not gonna be able to feel the positive emotions either. It's like you don't get to choose between feeling the harder emotions or the positive emotions. And I love this distinction of calling them harder emotions or challenging emotions rather than negative emotions. Because truly, if I think about some of the most beautiful moments of my life, I think it's been when I've been in grief or when I've been in sadness. It's like I can create really beautiful art when I'm in grief. I feel really sensitive when I'm in grief. I feel like I'm feeling things more deeply and I'm seeing other people sometimes more deeply when I'm in my own grief too. And I'm seeing like a fricking like flower more like when I'm in grief. It's like, wow, that color is so beautiful. You know, you're just like in it. And so it isn't necessarily negative. They're like, they're necessary. They're the necessary emotion.


Cecilie: Yeah, that's how a lot of really beautiful art is created too, in those states of mind. And yeah, I love what you said about turning those challenges into wisdom. And I just want to mention that post-traumatic growth is a really powerful thing. I mean, this is obviously like, could be its own podcast episode. Just want to mention that that is, that is a thing that, it's just really powerful and I think PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, I think that's, most people know what that is, there's a lot of focus on that. I just want to also highlight that post-traumatic growth, like growing from traumatic experiences is a real thing.


Caitie: Yeah, yeah, and it's just true that it is maybe the only thing we grow from is challenges. And I'm not necessarily just talking about big traumatic things, but you know, trauma isn't necessarily about what happens to you, it's about what happens in your body. And so there is a big range of things that can be kind of classified as trauma, so to speak. And yeah, it is really important to acknowledge that just because you are reflecting on how a challenging experience turned into a meaningful one doesn't mean that you're being toxic positivity or that you're bypassing negativity. And I think that someone like me really needed to hear that a few years ago when I was living in this fear of being toxic positivity. I kind of realized that I had recovered from my eating disorder and was starting to make podcasts like this. And I was like, oh, am I bypassing how hard it is for some people to recover from their eating disorder just because I'm talking about my own recovery in a hopeful way? And yeah, so it's something I've talked about a lot. So I really appreciate, or I thought about a lot. So I really appreciate this question. Anything else you want to say about that one?


The second listener question I got was I just listened to the Mel Robbins podcast about how to be happier. And she spent so much time talking about how relationships are the number one predictor of our quality of life. I feel stuck in this area of my life. I understand that I should have more positive relationships and I really want them and I'm putting myself out there to find them. But I feel like I don't have enough high quality friends and I also don't have a partner. And that listener question ended in a period. And I really appreciate your honesty to the person who asked this question. I think that it is going to be really liberating for other people to hear that they're not alone in feeling like this. And Cecilie and I have both felt like this. We do feel like this a little bit right now. And so we're gonna speak to this question slash this reflection that you shared and I just want to thank you for sharing that. What comes up for you Cecilie?


Cecilie: Yeah, thank you so much for asking this question and you are not alone. I just want to say that really clearly, like you are not alone. I have so many friends. I have most of my clients. Yeah, and me as well. I've definitely felt like that in the past few years. It's not, it's just a very human experience. And again, thank you for asking. And, it's hard. It can be definitely hard, especially as an adult. Like how do you make new friends? Like that could be, that could also be like, it's that entire like podcast series on its own. It's a big question. And I think it's so valid and it's so great that you, it sounds like this person is taking action and seeking out different forms of community. And I think that's just a really great step, just being open to it and placing yourself and situations where you might meet like-minded people and people you might become friends with. I think that's a really great first step. And in addition to that, I also just want to say, I mean, we'll, we'll dive more into positive emotions very soon. And I also just want to say to acknowledge the little moments of connection, connecting with other humans. Those are valid too. And those are kind of, we'll talk more about positive emotions, but positive emotions, I kind of like. Kind of like nutrients that you get throughout your day, like little sprinkles of nutrients that adds up and contributes to well-being and happiness. So those are valid too. So I just really invite this person to seek those out as well and see those as valid. Maybe there are small moments that you could just be a little bit more present for. Maybe it's not a friend, but if you are going to a cafe and you're talking to the barista. Or you're doing like for me, whenever I go to take a yoga class, I kind of chat with the teacher a little bit. And maybe I have a little conversation with the person next to me and just seeking out small moments of connection throughout the day can also add on to this, like this positive emotions that are actually life giving throughout your day as well.


Caitie: Yeah, coming from New York City, I really had to rewire my idea of like who I'm supposed to talk to throughout the day. I think it's really common in New York to like not talk to a cashier. It's really common to walk by a bajillion people and not say hi to or smile at or make eye contact with a single one of them. And now that I'm living in Lisbon, I walk past way fewer people. Therefore, every person that I do walk past, I actually can make eye contact with and smile a lot and have a moment of acknowledgement like, oh, we're two human beings crossing the same plane of the earth right now. And I actually can talk to cashiers. I actually can talk to baristas. And just this morning, I went to yoga class and I was walking out and I saw this guy who I had met a few months ago at a cafe and we were chatting for a little bit. And he was like, oh, hey, how are you doing? I'm like, good, like, how are you? And he was like, yeah, how was the class? He just took, I was like, it was good. And then I kind of just noticed myself like completely just like shuffling through, just like getting to put my shoes on, like trying to get out the door. And I was like, I probably could have had a way more nourishing moment of connection just then. Like he definitely was like willing to talk to me and my New Yorker brain was just like, gotta get out gotta get out of the studio like. And I meanwhile, I just ran into someone that I knew who was like really kind and I was like What am I doing? Like why am I doing this to myself? I think I tend to think of my relationships and moments of connection as like these profound like two-hour conversations that I get to have with my friends like you know once a week, but the truth is that I could have been honestly, truly way more nourished by that brief interaction that I had and I didn't open myself up to it. 


So I think that that's something I'm trying to get better at, like shedding my thick New York skin and just being like, oh, wow, I can actually maybe not have time to hang out with anybody all day today. But as I'm kind of moving in these other places and spaces, I can acknowledge that there's another human being in front of me, handing me this coffee. There's another human being in front of me crossing the street at the same time as me. Whatever that might be. Also not underestimating the value of sending a few text messages. I listened to a podcast I really enjoyed yesterday, sent it to my little brother, and then he, I woke up this morning from like a whole, for like a whole reflection on the podcast episode, and I was like, it took me two seconds to send him this episode that made me think of him, and now we've had this really like deep connection over the pod, so I feel like that's something that really comes up for me.


And there was something else within what you just said that I was gonna respond to. Oh, actually, no. The other thing I wanted to share in response to this question is please celebrate the fact that you're doing what you can to foster more meaningful connections. Perhaps rather than saying like, oh, I'm doing everything I can, why isn't it working? What if you celebrated the fact that you're doing everything that you can and leaned into the fact that because you're doing everything you can to seek more meaningful connections with the people, it's inevitable that you're gonna find the relationships you're looking for. It may just take some time and the universe is still playing some chess, like trying to get the right people sorted into your life and celebrate the fact that you're doing what you can to foster more meaningful connections. Rather than being like, ah, I'm doing everything I can. I think you deserve to be celebrated for the way you're putting yourself out there. So that was another thing that came up for me. Anything coming up for you around this question?


Cecilie: No, I totally agree with the celebration. That's huge. And yeah, let it take time. Sometimes it might take longer than you want and need, but that's okay. You'll get there.


Caitie: Yeah. Yeah. And I guess maybe one more thing too is just to speak to like the ebb and flow of relationships throughout our life as well. It can be really hard to realize that you're kind of slipping away from some friends that you used to be close with or some family members that you used to be close with. And that is one of those moments of like validating your own grief and how you're feeling about something and giving yourself a little bit of time and space to just be like, yeah, this is like, it is funky when a relationship ends or that's not a, it is a little funky when a friendship ends as opposed to like a romantic partnership because it's a little bit less straightforward. And there sometimes is a little bit more of a different kind of grief involved in that. I've talked about that on some previous podcast episodes, the one that I recorded with my friend Nicole, probably like six to eight weeks ago. And I've also recently recorded a podcast about loneliness and overcoming loneliness. I think that's a whole other layer to this question. So that episode was just about three or four weeks ago. So feel free to tune into those episodes too. That might be a good resource. 


Okay. So let's dive into the tangible practices part of this episode. The first thing that Cecilie and I are going to talk about is the fact that happiness is not the only positive emotion. And I wanna share that one of the ways Cecilie and I became really close in college is that we both took this class called the Science of Happiness. It was an amazing course offered at NYU. We are so lucky to have taken this course. And on the first day of the course, the instructor said to us, he was like, okay, I want to tell you the truth. You've kind of been trapped into taking this class. Um, we just called it the science of happiness because we knew that that was like a really sexy title. But it's not just about happiness. It's about a lot of other things that are, you know, you might technically constitute as like how to be happier, but yeah, it's not just about happiness because happiness isn't the only positive emotion. And happiness isn't the only way that you feel good. It's not about feeling happy all the time. And so, Cecilie, can you speak a little bit more to like, yeah, why isn't it just happy? And why is that an important thing for people to know?


Cecilie: Yeah, that's it. Yeah, thanks for pointing that out. And I get that all the time. When people find out, oh, positive psychology. Okay. And they're like, oh, you're a happiness expert. And I'm like, well, happiness is part of it. But that's not the whole picture, right? Because we also, positive psychology designs about being is also about, it's also about meaning. It's also about being present and mindfulness and positive relationships and engagement and character strengths and there's just so much more to it and happiness is a part of it or the positive emotions. It's just like a part of a life worth living, a life where you flourish. And also when we think about happiness, when we think about positive emotions, it's about more than, like you said, it's about more than just feeling happy. We maybe think about when you think about a person who's happy, maybe we think about this smiling person jumping up and down like, whoa, happiness. It's just that that's part of it, right? That's definitely just feeling that that joy is definitely an euphoria. That's definitely amazing feeling. And there are so many other ways to have positive emotions. Like we also think about gratitude and also feeling calm, feeling calmness, feeling serene, feeling interested in something and inspired and just want to just like be intrigued and want to learn more about something. Feeling love, feeling really connected to other people, feeling pride and proud of something that you accomplished maybe, feeling amused and entertained and also feeling hope, hopeful about something and awe, being in awe of maybe another person or maybe something in nature. 


So my first invitation to the listener, the first practice is to just get a little bit more specific with the positive emotions you're feeling. And I think we're so, in our culture, we're kind of socialized into answering the question, like, how are you? Good, feeling good. But okay, what does that mean? Like, can we get a little bit more specific or granular, as we say, in the field? Like, what are you actually feeling? And there can be many things at the same time. And I also want to point out that there can be many, many emotions present at the same time, so we can have these positive emotions. For example, we can feel grateful, and we can also have these more challenging emotions. Like, maybe there's some also some grief there or other challenges emotions so that many things can be true at the same time when it comes to our emotions.


Caitie: Yes, the idea that happiness and like, ecstatic joy are not, is not the only positive emotion is, has been very important for me to remember over the last couple of years. I've been in this life stage of trying to calm the fuck down. And I am, I'm default pretty wired up. I'm default pretty ecstatic and I'm default very enthusiastic about a lot of things. And I noticed in my life, I lack serenity sometimes. I lack like a leveled kind of calm energy sometimes. And there's something about remembering the fact that calmness is a positive emotion that feels really affirming for me because I think at some point in my life along the way, I kind of learned that it was like bad to be calm or maybe lazy to be calm or to be level or just maybe not worth it. Like you've got to squeeze the juice out of every single day, Caitie. So you've got to make sure that you're in your like aesthetic high, like all the time, like kind of seeking that next like blissful joy. And I've kind of made it a mission for myself recently to try to seek more calmness. And I am curious, you know, when you're working with someone who, I can't be the only one out there who's constantly seeking joy. How do you teach someone or how would you teach someone to kind of gear shift from seeking the thrill of happiness to seeking some of those other positive emotions like calmness, like what are the other ones you even named right now? Gratitude, yeah, these other ones, the other one, the others.


Cecilie: Yeah, yeah, all the other ones, inspiration, love, hope, yeah, there's a lot of them and there's more as well. Yeah, I think a good first step could be to kind of do a little bit of an assessment, like how do I want to feel? Like what are the emotions that I want to feel for a more balanced life? And in your case, Caitie, it sounds like you want to balance out the joy and the enthusiasm with calmness and serenity. And yeah, I know that it has been a theme for you for the past few years. And I love that for you. And I actually think a little exercise that can be really helpful to build awareness is to do a little bit of tracking of your own state of mind. So what you could do is to look at your schedule and throughout the day, maybe three or four times a day, maybe more, maybe less, you kind of track how you're feeling. And this could be as simple as an emoji or maybe it's like a word or a few words. And if you have, let's say, I personally use a Google calendar. Love my Google calendar. It's color coded. It's beautiful. I can't live without it. And I actually did this exercise when I was, when I was a student at NYU, I had a period of time when I was just not in a very good place mentally. And I started working with a counselor and she had me do this exercise. Like, okay, look at your schedule, check in a few times a day. Like, how am I feeling? And just like throw a little emoji or a little word in there in my Google calendar. And very soon, you'll start to see patterns and you'll start to see like, oh, when I was meeting up with a friend, I felt more joyful or oh, when I went for a walk in the park, I felt more calm and you'll start to identify patterns. And this is just an exercise to build more self-awareness, like what actually makes me feel the emotions that I want to feel. And then you can start to be intentional about scheduling more of those activities and those things that will make you feel how you want to feel. 


So to give an example, I think for me, in the past few months have been that I just haven't felt very, in my daily life, I just feel like I need some more inspiration and more variety. Like I just need to mix things up because like I work from home, I'm just like at home quite a bit and I just need to get out and do new things. And I know that about myself. Like I just know I love to try new things. So I'm trying to be very intentional about going to new, it might as be little things like I just go to a new coffee shop, try out a new restaurant or schedule maybe it's like a yoga class at a studio. I haven't tried out before with a new teacher and I just need to sprinkle new things into my schedule. So that's, that could be like a nice exercise to explore, just like build self-awareness and then make very intentional choices of how you want to structure your daily life and really lay yourself, have those things to feel more balanced in how you're feeling.


Caitie: Yeah, that's beautiful. That idea of letting yourself have the thing is so crucial. I feel like a lot of people tend to, a lot of people feel stuck with their sense of self-worth and feeling like they are worthy. And the truth is that worth is built through actions. It's through taking actions that remind you that you matter. And you need to remind yourself that you're worthy of the thing that brings you the emotions that you're trying to foster. I certainly am not trying to do more new things. I'm set on the new things. I think I'm set on new things for the rest of my life with this last couple of nomadic things. And so it's really interesting though, right? Because I'm trying to do more of the same thing that brings me more of a leveling calm energy, because I realized that that is a part of the spectrum that I'm missing in my life. Whereas you are like, wanting to do more things that bring you more of that excitement and more of that buzz. And like, Cecilie and I could easily not know this about ourselves. Like we very easily could just be kind of skirting through life and I can just keep chasing excitement because that's my default and Cecilie could just keep chasing serenity at home because that's her default. And I think it is really powerful to I mean, first of all, have relationships where we can kind of mirror this to each other because obviously Cecilie and I can see each other in that way, but also that, yeah, that simple tracking, that simple self-awareness can make a really big difference. And with all of these tools that we have available now, the podcasts, the books, the Instagram and TikTok therapy, and like all of these different things that are telling us all these different tools that we can use to take care of ourselves, I think sometimes we forget to come back to how it is as simple as building an awareness of how you feel and maybe sprinkling some things into your schedule that you can just let yourself have, some of which don't cost any money. One of my favorite things to put in my schedule is go sit in the grass. And I just find a patch of grass in nearby park near my apartment and just go sit in it. And I blocked out an hour to sit in the grass. And it's hard to let myself have it sometimes. And it's hard to not be like, oh, well, I could just actually just sit here answering emails for another hour rather than going outside. When I let myself have it, I operate completely differently.


Cecilie: Beautiful. Yeah, I think that the self-awareness piece is so important because just well-being is very individual, right? There are certain activities that bring one person a lot of joy and well-being and all of that, but another person is just like, not for me, right? So in positive psychology, we talk about the person-activity fit, like it needs to be a match there. So I just invite the listener to explore, like what are the things that work for you? And just being present for that. And then the self-permission piece is so key. That was actually the topic of my master capstone thesis is the importance of giving yourself permission to take care of your wellbeing in very intentional ways. And I just think that's, it's just such a different, that foundational step to really lay yourself, lay yourself have it. Like we said.


Caitie: Yeah, I love this idea of dating activities. The same way we are gonna date different meals and see if it keeps us full as long as we wanted to. And the same way we're gonna date people and see if we wanna be with them long term. Like, I love this. And the permission thing too. I just went on a retreat with Elizabeth Gilbert, a weekend retreat, and one of the things she had us do was write ourselves a series of permission slips, and we had to write our full names, so I had to be like, I, Caitlyn Anneliese Corradino, give myself permission to blah, blah, blah. And I was like, this is so cheesy. And it was so, so, so powerful. She was like, you can also write it from like the office of like the principal or like the office of like God or like whoever you think is like the most powerful is like writing you a permission slip. And then we shared them with the people next to us. And it was just so cool to hear everyone's permission slips because it was like, so many people just want permission to like not do something if they don't feel like it. So many people want permission to just be like, I'm gonna let the laundry basket fill up a little bit more. So many people need permission to like yeah, I'm just gonna actually go sit in the grass even though I could answer a couple of emails. And permission is powerful. I love that. And I think that is another tangible takeaway. What can you write yourself a few permission slips for? Even if you don't believe that they're true right now, try to write them and share them with me. Share them with me and Cecilie and see how it goes. 


So the last thing we're gonna shift into talking about today is savoring. And I'm shifting into this kind of out of nowhere because I think that it's one of the most important things I want Cecilie to share with my listeners because when I think of Cecilie, I think of savoring. I went on Cecilie's retreat in Greece late last year and I was lucky enough to be able to lead some movement and some reiki on that retreat and. After the retreat, I also spent a few days with Cecilia and her partner in Athens. And while we were in Athens, I asked Cecilie, you know what she was doing while I was on a walk. And she was like, oh, I was just doing some savoring. And I was like, oh, what is, what does that mean? You were doing some savoring. She's like, yeah, I was just sitting in bed and doing some savoring. And I just found that to be the cutest thing ever, that she first of all thought that I knew what that meant. And also, that that was like a scheduled activity. And so Cecilie, can we end today's episode by you telling people a little bit more about savoring and how they can sit in bed and do some savoring if they have a really beautiful experience, such as a retreat in Greece or even just a really good dinner with a friend or just a really nice day in the park. How can we, how can we savor these things and what the heck does that mean?


Cecilie: Yeah, absolutely. I love how you tell that story and I think I've just been immersed in the positive psychology field for so long that sometimes I'm just like, oh, that's this thing. And it's like, wait. Yeah. So yeah. So first of all, I just want to say that when we're talking about these positive emotions, it might seem trivial, right? So first I just want to say that when we're thinking about and talking about positive emotion, it might seem trivial, might seem a bit fluffy, but actually there's so much, so much high quality research showing that positive emotions, having positive emotions, they are powerful. And I just want to point out a researcher, Barbara Ferguson, she's done like amazing, if you're interested that she's the person to read up on and her research. And she has this broad and unbuilt theory that also has been backed by scientific evidence that when we have positive emotions in the moment, they are like I mentioned earlier, they're kind of working like nutrients and they are opening up our awareness and helps us be more creative, taking in more information. So that's kind of the in the moment, temporary effect and also they just feel good, right? It's just like, it feels good to feel good, right? 


But then over time, positive emotion actually accumulates and built into resources. It makes us more resilient and better prepared to navigate the challenges that are part of the human experience. So positive emotions are powerful and savouring practices are really different practices that can help us amplify and extend the positive emotions that we have. So these are important. These are practices that kind of goes back to the permission piece too. Like we have to let ourselves have the positive emotion and we can savor in the moment, we can savor the past and we can savor the future. So let me talk about all of these things. So when we savor the future, that could be kind of positive anticipation. So, to give an example, I went out for dinner with my partner Demetrius on Saturday a few days ago to a pizza place, one of the best pizza places in Oslo in my opinion. And pizza, margarita, like a good pizza margarita, it's like my favorite meal ever. Like I just love that so much. And before we were going, we knew where we were going, right? I was actually like looking at the menu and going to the Instagram and I was like, I can't wait to go there and have this to have this dinner date. So it's you can like savor future experiences and anticipate them in a positive way. And then in the moment that is just like in the moment, really letting yourself have those positive emotions and just like really letting yourself feel them. And there's definitely a bit of mindfulness that comes into this. And which I know you talked a lot about on your podcast, just like being present and just allowing yourself to really savor and take those good, just like having those amazing experiences in the moment, letting yourself be there fully present. And that's a practice too. Our mind will wander. It's an ongoing practice. It is like bring yourself back and grounding in the moment. 


And then savoring the past. That's what I was doing after the Greece retreat when you were like, wait, what are you doing in there? What I was doing is, so I had led this, my first retreat ever, yoga and wellbeing retreat in Greece. Can't wait to go back in September actually for my second one. But what I was doing after this week of holding so much space and, you know, just holding everything together and then the retreat was over and we went to Athens together and I was just like, whoo, like just exhausted. I just totally collapsed after, which I'm sure you can relate to Caitie after your retreat. But what I was doing is that I actually sat down and I just did some journaling and just reflected on my experiences and just looking back and just like taking those experiences in and there are many ways to savor the past. This could also be kind of reminiscing about the future, maybe looking at some photos. I think photos are really powerful. For me, at least, it's a very powerful way to savor something that happened in the past. Or it could be you and me, Caitie, we're talking about some fun experiences that happened when we were studying abroad in Australia together, having roommates and going out dancing at this salsa club where we went all the time. And it could just be like sharing stories and just like laughing and savoring things that happened in the past. There are many ways to do this, but essentially what savoring practice does is that it extends and amplifies the positive emotions that we have.


Caitie: Can you also explain the root of the word savoring? I think that that's really interesting too. Like what the translation of it, the meaning of it.


Cecilie: Yeah, absolutely. So the word savor comes from Latin and I'm probably totally gonna butcher the pronunciation. I don't know. I don't speak Latin, but the word it comes from the word sapere.


Caitie: If anyone listening to this podcast speaks Latin, let us know.


Cecilie: My parents actually met in a Latin class. They were studying Latin and that's how they met. They were studying like behind the... 


Caitie: Wow. On purpose they were studying Latin?


Cecilie: Yes, in high school. Why would they study a dead language? I don't know, but they did.


Caitie: I thought maybe they sought this class out. It's like a little better that it was in high school and like required of them. But yes. So anyway, tell us the Latin word.


Cecilie: Okay, so the word savor comes from the Latin word sapere, which means to taste and It also has associations with being wise so to savor it's really all about being wise about what we hold on to and great wisdom can come from Okay, I'm reading my notes here from grad school. This is a quote here that I would like to read to you. Great wisdom can come from processing the failure and the challenges that are part of the human experience, as we talked about, and deeply processing the good stuff. So we're being wise about what we're holding on to. The challenges, we're processing them, we're letting them move through us, and then we're moving on and we're holding on to the good stuff and we're amplifying the good stuff.


Caitie: I love this idea of savoring being about tasting and about wisdom. Like when I think about the essence of whole, full, and alive, it's like how much are you letting yourself really like taste your life and like experience? Everything that it is for the good and for the bad and how much are you letting in wisdom in the form of empathy that comes when you allow yourself to feel it all in the form of just knowledge of which way to go next when you let yourself feel it all and knowledge of yourself and an understanding of yourself when you let yourself yeah, like taste it all. And I think that's so beautiful and I love this idea of just extending and amplifying our experiences by savoring. And I encourage you to, whenever you can, have a gentle savoring practice in your life. I started doing this in the shower. I'm a nighttime shower girly. I take showers at night now. And so at the end of the day, when I'm in the shower, I try to intentionally be like, okay, what went down today that was good? Like what are three things that I would have otherwise forgotten if I didn't pull over to nurture them for a second? And it's actually been really helpful. I've been finding myself getting a good vibe going in the shower as opposed to just like, okay, it's this robotic thing that needs to get done before I go to bed. It's like, ooh, I'm actually excited about what I'm savoring and what I'm remembering in the shower. 


And it can be that simple. You don't even have to journal it. And if photos are something that you have a complicated relationship with right now, like you don't have to look at photos, but I think that healing your relationship with photos can be really helpful for that reason of savoring, like you were saying. Our experiences don't have to end with the experience itself. And that's not to say live in the past. It's to say appreciate your life and learn from your life. And yeah, celebrate your life versus living in the past. And like, I love this distinction of we can savor the future, we can savor the past, and we can savor the present. So good, so good. So as we're wrapping up here, girl, anything else you wanna share with everyone who's listening and anything else you wanna tell them about where they can find you and learn more about working with you.


Cecilie: Yeah, thank you so much. And just thank you so much for this conversation. This was really fun. And I just invite the listener to be curious about their well-being and keep being curious and experiment and building that sel -awareness and then giving yourself permission to make those changes and have those positive experiences, holding space for all the emotions we need all of them and amplifying good stuff. So that's just my final invitation. And you can definitely connect with me on Instagram. My handle is Cecilie, Cecilie with an E dot lovestam dot wellbeing. And if you connect me, please send me a message. Let me know your main takeaway. I would just love to connect. You can also learn more about my work on my website, Cecilielovestam.com.


Caitie: Beautiful. Thank you so much for your time and your energy and your wisdom and savor this episode fam. If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it with someone who might benefit from hearing these messages. That is the most valuable and beautiful thing that you can do. I shared earlier that I threw a podcast episode of my little brother and it amplified our connection, which was really nice. Recommend doing that. And if you are open to it. Please leave a five star rating on Apple or Spotify. It means the world and also gets this podcast into more people's ears. I really appreciate you for listening. Have a beautiful rest of your day, a peaceful rest of your day, whatever you need it to be, whatever positive emotion you're lacking. I hope you can seek it today. And I'll be back here next week. 





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